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An overall cross-games points/reward system?

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libervisco's picture
Joined: 2006-05-04

One idea proposed for the game fest was basically a cross-games award system which would basically reward a single person's activity in the game fest.

Reward points could be awarded to players based both on their current position in the charts of games they play. The more games they play the more points they are therefore eligible to win.

Ultimately this would give us the best player in the whole game fest, someone to have the honor of carrying the title of The Ultimate Player of the Freedomware Gamefest 2007.

How would we derive these points though? Perhaps the best and simplest way could be to simply count wins. Unless I am missing something you can hardly go wrong with that. Any win in any game will ultimately push you up the ladder and awarding an universal gamefest point for this progress then seems only natural (if we decide to do this, which is why I'm posting this topic).

What about teams? Well, if one wins as part of a team then every player of the team may be awarded one point. If there is concern that this would allow awarding points to players who don't deserve that, we can backtrack that a bit and award half a point to every player on the team. Or to be even more precise we can award a whole point to the team half who had best scores/frags in a team and half a point to the lower half of the team (who had less scores).

Without a system like this in place we will likely not have a single ultimate player of the game festival. You decide whether this would be good or not. Eye

Thank you

Joined: 2007-10-11

I agree with the idea.
We can also give :
- 0 point for losing
- 1/2 for a draw
- 1 for a win

And on team games :
- 0 for losing and a draw
- for the winning team : 1 point for everyone except the first (and 2nd or even 3rd depending on the size of the team) who receive 2 points

libervisco's picture
Joined: 2006-05-04
That sounds good for

That sounds good for dealing with draws as well, but I'm not sure about 2 points for the top of the winning teams. I'm not sure if it would be fair to give them that advantage just because they were among better in the winning team while someone who plays alone and can play just as good gets only 1 point.

The idea of giving less points (half that is) to the weaker players of the team is simply because those, on the other hand, might be riding on the coat tails of the best players in their team, so in a same sense might not deserve a whole point.

I know... this brings me back to the original idea of half points for the weaker part of the team and 1 point for stronger...

Maybe I'm just nitpicking though. Maybe teams do deserve some advantage simply because they play in team.. What does everyone think?

Joined: 2007-09-10
On forthcoming details for a prize from a mystery sponsor

There is a good chance I'll be able to make an announcement within the next week on a mystery sponsored prize. I can say that there is a very good chance that the prize will be based on a special point system.

I also have some leads to potentially more prizes. Hopefully these will get announced later, perhaps after the fest begins.

Joined: 2007-09-10
First set of details

These are the details I have.

First Prize/Award Group:
-- Donor wants to remain anonymous [seems I'll serve as contact for the time being].
-- Donor would like the awards to be recognized officially [this may not be possible until they are awarded and confirmed since I don't know if the gamefest coordinators have a way to verify/accept the award money ahead of time].
-- The awards include a recognition component (obviously) and prize money. There will be four awards with money prizes totalling $200.
-- The donor wants the awards recognized as being a part of the "Thundaker Freedomware Gamefest 2007 Multi-Skilled Player Awards" or the "Thundaker Freedomware Tournaments Multi-Skilled Player Awards." The first choice in name is preferred if the award is recognized officially. Otherwise, it shall be known by the second name and the attempt will be made to contact the winners outside official communication channels.
-- The awards will be $50 to each of the top three individual finishers in points using a point system yet to be determined. The points will primarily come from a diverse sampling of games using individual match results, but team play will factor into the point system. The intention is for the point system used to reward skill in a wide variety of game play modes and games.
-- Another $50 prize will go to the overall gamefest winner. The prize will go to whomever the gamefest officially recognizes as the winner unless they do not do this, in which case a point system will be announced eventually. This point system will try to place similar weight in all the component categories.
-- [Having a say in what backup point system will be used in this last case, I think that the average scores will be normalized, meaning that someone scoring the average score in each category would get the same number of points contributed from each category. Not sure if standard deviation will be used to scale the point scores since it is easier to end up with a large deviation in a lightly attended competition and if anything you want the more popular tournaments to have the edge in points contributed.]

Second Prize/Award Group:
-- Donor wants to remain anonymous.
-- Donor would like the awards to be recognized officially.
-- The awards include a recognition component (obviously) and prize money. There will be three awards with money prizes totalling $100.
-- The donor wants the awards recognized as being a part of the "Thundaker Freedomware Gamefest 2007 Trivia Award" or the "Thundaker Freedomware Tournaments Trivia Award." The first choice in name is preferred if the award is recognized officially. Otherwise, it shall be known by the second name and the attempt will be made to contact the winners outside official communication channels.
-- A $50 top prize will go to whoever scores the most points in a trivia contest held througout the fest. Second and third highest scorers will get $25. Questions will probably be presented daily and participants will have a deadline (maybe more than one day) to submit the answers through email. If officially recognized, the questions might be posted on the main website. Otherwise the website/location will be announced later.
-- The trivia questions will be diverse and some will be easy. Some will me more challenging. Some will have multiple components or allow for a range of points (eg, if a question involved providing a list of items, there might be points given for each item on the list). The questions will not be limited to the Gamefest knowledge, Linux knowledge, or FOSS/Freedomware knowledge but will likely include samples from these departments.

Giving the prize money may be tricky. As a fallback, the Donor is willing to donate to a FOSS project of the winner's choice. Another option is to use a trusted third party to exchange the money. Finding a way to use Paypal [I don't have experience with Paypal] may be the most practical for ensuring that anyone can receive a money award.

Money amounts expressed in US dollars.

libervisco's picture
Joined: 2006-05-04
Ok, first of all sorry for

Ok, first of all sorry for a delayed response. I should have gotten to it yesterday, but I had been busy offline most of the day.

That said, I am happy that there is a generous donor on board, but I'm afraid I don't fully understand your post. The donor is willing to provide prizes under the condition that they be for the specified winners and under specified names? The thing is I can't really proceed properly with this unless I fully understand what's at stake and I really am not sure what of the above equates to the winners in the structure we already laid out and .. well.. what in the world is "Thundaker"??

Also, what role does Trivial Award play in all this? Is this some sort of a new game component that he has in mind?

I am sorry, but I am honestly left a bit puzzled here... Please, if anyone thinks I'm missing something shout at me!

So.. instead of trying to interpret your post I'll just say what's in mind regarding the winners of the game fest. Well, pretty much the only official thing right now is that there will be one ultimate winner of the whole game fest that will be determined by the universal points system likely based on the ration between games played and games won - as simple as that. The title of this player is not yet officially made up, but it could be something in the lines of "Freedomware Gamefest 2007 Ultimate Player".

This is the one which would receive the biggest prize. Full stop.

Moving on.

Then we have winners of each game slot being played, which is either the winning player (if it was a sole-player based tournament) or a winning team (if it was team based). We will therefore have as many winners here as there are game slots. Whether each of these winners will be able to get a prize depends on how many sponsors we have and how much money we get via donations and t-shirt sales.

Now.. if you can and have the patience, feel free to tie those facts up with what you said above, cause right now, for all intents and purposes I'm lost without seeing a clear relation between what I just said and whatever solution is being proposed.


Joined: 2007-09-10
Yep, good but strange

Yep, good but strange news... O.o

A trivia with more than one day as deadline would only make sense if the questions are really hard.
And having it unrelated to FOSS wouldn't make much sense in the context of this tournament.

"Donor would like the awards to be recognized officially.": What exactly does this mean?

And Thundaker? What's that?
Is the donor willing to pay 300$ to have this word (his nickname or whatever else it may be) spread on the net?

And if the donor wants to remain anonymous, there's no reason he can't come post here under a nickname with a bogus e-mail address. Eye

Joined: 2007-09-10
Be critical

I've been busy. I don't know how well I will be able to keep up with events and postings into the forseeable future. If I hadn't been busy, I would have reposted or emailed a little earlier since I expected some confusion.

I am fairly sure that the intent here was not to draw attention to the donor(s). For all intents and purposes I can be the donor. I would prefer for technical accuracy, not to be called the donor, but I expect to be the one cutting the check. It is your business what you call me, so long as I answer, right?

If we can manage to put the donor and the vanity title issues to the side, we might be able to draw attention to a more important matter, prizes.

My role in this situation has several components. First, I will disburse the money. That is pretty certain (as I can see) because I already have the money. I don't mind passing it on depending on the conditions. For example, if libervisco (whom I don't know personally, but that's not a problem here) wanted to accept the money and distribute it, I would be able to help make that possible [just email me for any details that you need from me or to give instructions on getting the money transfered]. Unfortunately, there are conditions. No one has to accept the money. I don't want conflicts. I suppose it is up to the individuals that will be offered the money in the future if they want to accept it or have it donated on their behalf. If they don't that is fine. That said, we can probably all agree that having the money officially be part of the fest is helpful to the fest, especially since the donation was intended to help strenghen the fest. The sum of the whole sometimes is greater than the sum of the parts. If this prize is not taken up officially by the fest, there will probably be other attempts to publicize the money and its unofficial connection to this fest.

So now we come to my second purpose with respect to the awards. I not only have instructions and the ability to disburse the money but I have some discretion in setting the prize money terms.

I don't want to damage the fest. The fest though does have strong standing. Whatever rules are adopted by the fest will affect who receives official status. I imagine that this fest will be build upon in the future. Any more awards or recognition that get contributed are likely to follow fest guidelines. Meanwhile this particular prize may come and go. It is nice to have distractions that pay, but it is nevertheless a side show. It will not matter all that much if $1000 is given to the person that achieves a "frag from the longest distance". No one is going to stop playing once that title has all but been assured. [OK, maybe a few will]

So, I want to listen to suggestions, but ultimately, I was entrusted to try and make the biggest impact I could with $300. This doesn't mean I know what I am talking about. This doesn't mean I can't be labelled a greedy short-sighted pig. But I trust myself enough to know that I might ultimately not go along with official fest guidelines (eg, in deciding who should receive the biggest award), so consider that a warning.

I might as well now invite any and all to take your best shot. Call me a pig and try, and back it up. I will pay attention to anyone that is reasonable.

In the meantime, let me try to explain some of the reasoning for some decisions.

Trivia. We are talking about trivia related to the game and freedomware (pick your favorite term), etc. I simply said that the questions weren't necessarily going to be limited to the few categories I specifically mentioned.

Is a trivia award a good award to have? I think so. First, it might be one way to get people to check the website frequently. Second, it allows those that don't care too much for the games currently being played to participate. Think of people participating much as you might think of a website getting hits or getting downloads. The value of the numbers may not be seen immediately, but it likely exists. We want an audience, I think. Trivia, including many sorts of questions, may appeal to a lot of people (eg, to someone that wants to be supportive but cares nothing about FPS) and can be a way to strike some interest in connection with the wide world of FOSS/freedomware. Do you not think that asking a question (and this may be a dumb example) about asterisk will not draw attention to that project? Sure, we might not care. The numbers may even be small this time around, but there is potential for that project to benefit and gain a refresh in attention. And it is interesting to have side shows that are different from the main event. It makes it more fun for the kids to tag along, for participants to take a breather and have something to think about or talk about that is different yet relevant in a way, etc.

How about allowing for more than one day to submit answers to a particular question? Well, I can think of a few reasons why this can be a good idea. It opens the door for more complex questions, questions that may involve a little bit of research. This adds variety and gives flexibility to the design of the questions. Without a good reason to do otherwise (eg, to keep with a theme of some sort), we should leave open the door for multi-day question/replies. I mentioned allowing for multiple days because I didn't want it to be assumed that daily questions would imply one day to answer.

Allowing for a variation in time helps people that have a clue but can't come up with anything at the moment to be able to sleep on it or come back to the question perhaps as others are being worked on.

Another important reason to allow more than one day is because we don't all always have time to keep up with these sorts of things daily. Imagine every few days checking to see which questions were given in the past days and finding out that some of them have not yet expired. On the other hand, those that do keep up can be rewarded with a stream of "one-point" easy points.

Having variety in the Q&A process also diminishes that chances of having to deal with tie-breakers (which really isn't a big deal); it allows scores to be varied (which isn't a huge deal either); it adds variety (every little bit counts); it gives a larger number of people a fighting chance, even when you have fallen behind and even if your specialty hasn't been hit yet (this is a pretty good reason I think).

Also, we might want to give a batch of question (perhaps with a theme) all at once.

Alright, a lot of people may be able to help draft questions, but they wouldn't be able to participate. Perhaps we should make preparations to announce (if the trivia competition is accepted officially) that we are accepting volunteers that won't be able to compete but who want to help craft questions. We may even allow for more than one question per day and have surprise questions, bonus questions, tripple points of another question wild card questions, etc. I can imagine many groups that might want to give a hand. [In fact, (half seriously) the asterisk project might be one such group].

Not sure what else to say right now. Remember that I may not reply or even read comments for a day or two at any given time. Take your best shot. Keep up the good work. ETC.

[For anyone that reads this and is interested in contributing prize money, my email is

without the 0's.]

libervisco's picture
Joined: 2006-05-04
Jose wrote: So, I want to
Jose wrote:

So, I want to listen to suggestions, but ultimately, I was entrusted to try and make the biggest impact I could with $300. This doesn't mean I know what I am talking about. This doesn't mean I can't be labelled a greedy short-sighted pig.

I don't see why would you be labeled "greedy", let alone a "pig". :puzzled:

Jose wrote:

But I trust myself enough to know that I might ultimately not go along with official fest guidelines (eg, in deciding who should receive the biggest award), so consider that a warning.

Point taken. Now all along it was planned for the biggest prize to go to the overall winner of the game fest as determined by the universal points system. Is this fair? I think it is a fair approximation and no one yet complained on that, except maybe you? I'm not sure.

Here is the thing. If we have a limited pool to draw from for the prize this means we probably wont be able to richly reward a multitude of people. This is really the biggest reason why I'm pushing this idea of having an universal winner - the one who really shined the most throughout all the games (s)he participated in. This doesn't mean that the few other winners of specific tournaments wouldn't get anything. We can give them smaller awards and a lot of praise!

Anything more on that simply depends on sponsors, donations and sales, as mentioned. That's the picture we're looking at.

Jose wrote:

Trivia. We are talking about trivia related to the game and freedomware (pick your favorite term), etc.

I see now. Thank you for taking the time to explain it. It is an interesting idea I have to say. Smiling

Now, to be completely honest I'll lay out the pros and cons. The pros are mostly the things you already outlined; giving a new component to the gamefest which would suit people who might not be big gamers, but do enjoy in expanding and testing their knowledge on things that matter (like FOSS) and it could also expand the potential audience of this game fest.

The cons are simply of organizational nature. We haven't planned for this and we're now quite late in the process. We should have the next press release along with a last promotional blitz out, yet the trivia contest idea needs to be worked out, the community interest has to be tested (will we even have enough players of this, we can't be sure) and the structure of the contest has to be laid down. All of these things are already being done or are deep in the process for other components of the fest, but this would just have to be started.

So I'm not sure.. it's something to consider. I'd love to hear opinions of others about it and if there is interest we could try, but I'm afraid we'll need more people working on this.


Joined: 2007-09-10
You are right that if a lot

You are right that if a lot of work doesn't go towards this soon by someone it will be dead in the water. As I stated in a very recent post, "it's like throwing a lot of things at the wall seeing what sticks." I am not trying to get others to do work I won't do myself.

I guess I should momentarily explain that I came upon some new work/obligations very recently that have cut my free time back a lot. And this week is particularly hectic. I can't say too much more at this time because there are a lot of variables.

I am open to reasonable arguments. There is always the next tournament. I may have to modify some earlier plans if I can't find time for them.

I have to go now, but I should be posting more later this week or at least next week. When the time is set and I know for sure, I may wiki add my name to those playing tremulous. I'll also try to keep my eye on the practice match scheduling.\

...Oh, and just today the speedometer on my car passed on to the next life. Wonderful. The car computers/electronics really loved that one.

Joined: 2007-09-10
Good news! Three hundred

Good news! Three hundred unrestricted dollars (USD) should be out of my hands and into the Gamefest lockbox (the one guarded by the shield and swords) perhaps as early as next week, so ignore the above award groups. Now there will be just a lump sum, and the community of players (or whoever controls the treasure chest) can determine how best to carve it up.

libervisco's picture
Joined: 2006-05-04
Well, that's great news! I

Well, that's great news! Smiling

I however hope that we can arrange for some sort of reciprocity for this. The standard thing in mind is providing credit to the donor as an official sponsor. Would that be possible or is the donor still insisting on anonymity? Or.. are you the actual donor?

Also.. no matter how it may sound, I have to ask for a reassurance that this doesn't come with extra strings attached now or in the future.

Joined: 2007-09-10
No strings attached. Just

No strings attached. Just remember that $300 pina coladas or a check to Microsoft may make you more enemies than you might be willing to handle.

Need a mechanism to push the money through (Teleportation for Dummies didn't help).

Anonymous is the name.

libervisco's picture
Joined: 2006-05-04
Teleportation for dummies.

Teleportation for dummies. Laughing out loud

Well.. I don't have a PayPal account but Landy was saying that we could use one in the name of TheTuxProject so that he would have this covered. However I haven't been hearing from him in a few days now.. which seems weird. Have you heard from him or seen him anywhere recently?

Oh and, I have to thank you for making this donation possible, as well as all the feedback you contributed. It is overwhelming, but it sure is useful.


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