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Changing to Fedora

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ariadacapo's picture
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I have started adapting GetGNULinux.org so that we move away from SUSE and go for Fedora Core.

The main page to change is the Choose a distribution page. I have done a draft of how the next page will look like. We now have Ubuntu + Kubuntu + Fedora.

The obvious thing is that there are no screenshots. We need 3 screenshots of Kubuntu and 3 screenshots of Fedora (1024 px wide). It would be nice to not use "default" screenshots from the official websites or OSDir, but instead show slightly personalised examples of everyday-use desktops. Ideally something a beginner can achieve in only a few clicks, and that shows common apps such as OO.o, Firefox or the file manager.

I cannot make these screenshots right away since the required FC & Kubuntu DVDs and CDs are still in the post. I equally have very little time and connexion to search for some on the web. So any help would be appreciated.

Next on the list for the change is the Try and Install page. As far as I can understand, there is no live CD for Fedora? If so the change will be quickly made.
Last will be an update on the Where to go page, where the SUSE links will be switched for Fedora ones.

Gustavo's picture
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ariadacapo wrote: I have
ariadacapo wrote:

I have started adapting GetGNULinux.org so that we move away from SUSE and go for Fedora Core.

The main page to change is the Choose a distribution page. I have done a draft of how the next page will look like. We now have Ubuntu + Kubuntu + Fedora.

The obvious thing is that there are no screenshots. We need 3 screenshots of Kubuntu and 3 screenshots of Fedora (1024 px wide). It would be nice to not use "default" screenshots from the official websites or OSDir, but instead show slightly personalised examples of everyday-use desktops. Ideally something a beginner can achieve in only a few clicks, and that shows common apps such as OO.o, Firefox or the file manager.

I cannot make these screenshots right away since the required FC & Kubuntu DVDs and CDs are still in the post. I equally have very little time and connexion to search for some on the web. So any help would be appreciated.

Next on the list for the change is the Try and Install page. As far as I can understand, there is no live CD for Fedora? If so the change will be quickly made.
Last will be an update on the Where to go page, where the SUSE links will be switched for Fedora ones.

That's great!

I'm using Kubuntu Edgy and I am willing to take screenshots of my OS. At least I love the way it looks.

I'll take them this afternoon.

Cheers!

michuk's picture
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Fedora for business? No...
Quote:

We recommend this distribution for use in professional environments.

I would strongly disagree that Fedora Core is stable enough to be offered for a professional environment. Frankly, I don't know about any company using Fedora on desktops. If I had a company and had to choose a distro for desktops I would certainly go with Ubuntu Dapper Drake or some other stable system (a one that was not released 2 weeks ago, but still has a long support period).

To be frank, I see not big difference between Ubuntu Edgy and FC6 for a regular user, so recommending those 2 distros for completely different environments seems inaccurate. I would rather say that FC is a free as in freedom system and Ubuntu is not, and this is the main difference.

Also, for Kubuntu -- I think it should be mentioned that it's not as stable and smoothly-integrated as Ubuntu with GNOME. I have been experiencing lots of instabilities with Kubuntu (even Dapper) on the desktop, things that occur very rarely with Ubuntu.

libervisco's picture
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Actually, Helios recently

Actually, Helios recently switched a load of computers in a company to Fedora Core. As he says, after evaluating all the options this one seemed the best.

But I'm getting some quite mixed opinions about Fedora lately. Some say it's not as stable (like edgy) and others say it is a solid distro for pro environments too, even servers. Some are enthused about it and others wont touch it.. And myself, I can't even try it due to the stream of bad luck I've had with it (couple of times bad CDs with FC5, once with FC6, one incomplete install due to asking for a CD4, and one corrupt DVD).

I'm still hoping to try it though.

michuk's picture
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stability and support
libervisco wrote:

But I'm getting some quite mixed opinions about Fedora lately. Some say it's not as stable (like edgy) and others say it is a solid distro for pro environments too, even servers.

Even with superb QA, it's just not possible to have a stable Linux distro shipping with bleeding-edge software. The software like KDE or other desktop tools need some time to get stable enough to be used in production (that means on a corporate desktop, that cannot accept random crashes every now and then).

It's about stability and long-term support, not about the trendy new features, as it comes to corporate desktops (and for servers it's even more accurate). Fedora is bleeding-edge and has basically no long-term support (older versions are being abaondoned soon after the new "stable" release), thus it's not a good choice for (most) corporations.

This is actually the reason I would never recommend any "just released" software for such environment. I would go with Ubuntu Dapper or even Debian Sarge, or some of the for-money options like RHED or SLED instead.

libervisco's picture
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Yeah that's understood,

Yeah that's understood, corporations want it rock solid. I would concede that Fedora is probably best for home desktops and home servers. Smiling

ariadacapo's picture
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Not solved yet

While re-writing this page I could feel this coming again. I agree that the choice still isn't right.

The goal of the quote about professional environments was to differentiate Fedora from Ubuntu, from the newcomer's perspective. It's true that it doesn't really apply.

How do we work this out then?

I don't want to get rid of Ubuntu, because:
- It serves as a liveCD
- It fits on a single CD
- It's got a friendly atmosphere around it.
All three are important, and especially the first one: many Windows users have had problems by installing software they could not remove properly. They certainly don't want to mess with OSes. This LiveCD thing is a very strong argument. For a newbie, Ubuntu is really a first choice.

I don't want to get rid of Fedora because:
- It's not from Canonical and we need someone different
- It's another software community that most users will trust easily (it's actually a lot more "seriousness"-focused)
- Red Hat is quite reliable in terms of policy and attitude towards free software.

How can we differentiate them, from the newcomer's point of view? If they have the same application menu and both use Nautilus, how will proposing both be relevant to Joe User?

Michuk you make excellent points about the choice for a company; I don't think we ought to choose a distro for a company (IT pros who don't know what GNU/Linux is probably are a minority amongst our visitors), but simply to justify having three distros at hand.

a thing's picture
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stability

I have no clue where the "Fedora is unstable" stuff comes from. Fedora goes through at least three RCs and updates after that go through testing too.

michuk's picture
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stable and stable
a thing wrote:

I have no clue where the "Fedora is unstable" stuff comes from. Fedora goes through at least three RCs and updates after that go through testing too.

I'm not saying it's particularily unstable. It's probably as stable as Ubuntu Edgy or openSUSE 10.1. I'm just saying that this kind of stability is not enough for coprorate desktops.

ariadacapo's picture
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new proposal

What if I changed it to this?

The Ubuntu section now reads:

Quote:

We recommend this friendly distribution for newcomers with everyday use requirements.

The Kubuntu section:

Quote:

We recommend this distribution for users with a slight penchant for graphics and customization.

The Fedora section:

Quote:

We recommend this distribution for more serious users intending to use a wide array of applications.

Is this more appropriate, keeping Joe User's perspective in mind?

ariadacapo's picture
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Try and Install page

I have now also put up the draft for the updated Try and Install page, for your review.

Any criticisms / comments welcome.

Olivier.

michuk's picture
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serious and wide array thing
ariadacapo wrote:

I have now also put up the draft for the updated Try and Install page, for your review.

Any criticisms / comments welcome.

Olivier.

What's that with this "serious" thing for Fedora. It kind of implies *buntu is not a serius OS... Also saying that Fedora is for those who "intend to use a wide array of applications" is misleading -- it suggests that Ubuntu has fewer apps. Again, the opposite is true.

The problem with this "recommend statement" is that there really aren't a lot of differences between Fedora Core and Ubuntu for a regular user. Mostly technical stuff. Perhaps, for "serious" stuff one could would rather recommend Debian. But again, it's so close to Ubuntu (except for the funky stuff) that the users could be misleaded again.

Seems like I just have the criticism but cannot think of the alternatives... but I really think there is no big difference between the major 4 "user-friendly" distros (openSUSE, Fedora Core, Mandriva, Ubuntu), thus recommending one or another is just a matter of personal *technical* preference.

Do I say we shouldn't recommend Fedora? No. But we should not say it's "serious" or "supports vast array of apps" because these are not the things that make it different. The things that make it different are: RPM package format and yum manager, great Xen support, more advanced system installer, security features (SELinux, Exec-Shield, Compile Time Buffer Checks, ELF, Data Hardening, Restricted Kernel Memory access and more) and better localization for some languages. See more at Ubuntu vs Fedora comparison on PolishLinux.org -- there really aren only technical differences understood by advanced users only.
So, say Fedora is fully free software, say it's Redhat's child, say (perhaps) it's good for programmers (lots of programming tools by default) but don't say it's serious. Windows is serious as well Smiling

libervisco's picture
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I'm also not sure about

I'm also not sure about kubuntu being better for graphics and customization, as compared to ubuntu.. Actually, GNOME is easier to theme and customize than KDE, IMHO. Not a very big deal, just a small observation.

About Fedora I agree with michuk. The issue remains, how to point out real differences in a way that would be best suitable for new users.

michuk's picture
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kde, gnome, fedora, and stuff :)
libervisco wrote:

I'm also not sure about kubuntu being better for graphics and customization, as compared to ubuntu.. Actually, GNOME is easier to theme and customize than KDE, IMHO. Not a very big deal, just a small observation.

KDE is way more customizable than GNOME. Not sure about "NOME is easier to theme and customize than KDE" -- perhaps that is... but the undisputed fact is that KDE has way more options and one can confgure it to look almost like anything, all using the standard configuration panels. For GNOME I had to use the gconf2 editor a lot which is not as easy-to-use.

I still use GNOME for its stability and clean looks (just wanted to mention than so that you don't get me as an KDE fanboy).

ariadacapo's picture
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michuk wrote: So, say
michuk wrote:

So, say Fedora is fully free software, say it's Redhat's child, say (perhaps) it's good for programmers (lots of programming tools by default) but don't say it's serious. Windows is serious as well Smiling

I understand, thanks again for pointing out.
I simply wanted to express that Joe User will have to download/order a whole DVD or x CDs to try Fedora, and then s/he will have to go for full install because it's not a live CD. So it implies much more commitment than Ubuntu IMHO.
I will try to rephrase this again Smiling Not losing hope Smiling

About KDE & GNOME, I fully agree with michuk. If we have to differentiate them in a few words, then customization and graphic artifacts come to mind.

ariadacapo's picture
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One more try

Here is another try. I am still stuck with the correct phraseology for Fedora, though.

The Ubuntu section says:

Quote:

We recommend this friendly and complete distribution if you are looking for an easy way to try and step into GNU/Linux.

The Kubuntu section says:

Quote:

We recommend this distribution if you have a slight penchant for graphics and customization.

How could we put it for the Fedora section?

We recommend this distribution if you are committed to using Free Software on your computer
We recommend this distribution if you are sure you want to install GNU/Linux on you computer

It's difficult to introduce the notion of a live CD here since this is a long explanation and it's done on the next page, Try and Install.

PS: I removed the links to other distros that were here at the bottom and linked to the PolishLinux resources instead... it's more relevant IMO but feel free to discuss.

michuk's picture
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free software is essential
ariadacapo wrote:

How could we put it for the Fedora section?

We recommend this distribution if you are committed to using Free Software on your computer
We recommend this distribution if you are sure you want to install GNU/Linux on you computer

It's difficult to introduce the notion of a live CD here since this is a long explanation and it's done on the next page, Try and Install.

I would go with "We recommend this distribution if you are committed to using Free Software". It's the essential difference between Ubuntu and Fedora.

ariadacapo wrote:

[PS: I removed the links to other distros that were here at the bottom and linked to the PolishLinux resources instead... it's more relevant IMO but feel free to discuss.

Of course I welcome that with enthusiasm Smiling

ariadacapo's picture
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"Where to go" page draft

And here is the draft to the updated Where to go page.
Nothing important changed there. Later in December I really intend to improve that page to put the GGL.o, PL.o & Nxfd "trio" forward, but right now there are more urgent things needing doing.

Once all of these three pages (choose a distro + try and install + where to go) are set, I think we are set to let SUSE go and work on improving the site elsewhere.

free-zombie's picture
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if you mention live CDs at

if you mention live CDs at all, I'd recommend to link Knoppix (as the project that made the idea popular) as well - as not to look too biased to ubuntu here...

Gustavo's picture
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Hi everybody.Better late

Hi everybody.

Better late than never: Here you have my screenshots.

Sorry, but I was trying to solve some issues in "the real world" lately, so I was unable to do this until this afternoon.

There are 2 types of screenshots: Fullscreen and window-only. Also, in the "src" folder you'll find some of the source files used to take these shots.

I tried to show that Kubuntu is suitable for "human beings", as well as geeks. Eye

By the way, the photograph on my wallpaper was taken from my room a few days before I left my country. Isn't my city cute?

Everything I've done on this work is in the public domain.

Any suggestion? Do you like them? Should I take more screenshots? I don't mind installing privative software (such as Skype) to take these screenshots as I'd uninstall them afterwards. Also, I don't mind taking these screenshots using my OS in other languages.

Cheers.

ariadacapo's picture
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moved file

Thanks Gustavo!

Since Uploading.com was trying to tell me I should install plugins to display more ads, try to contact local girls for sex, and run some programs to get rid of Windows system errors and optimize registry performance, I thought I would spare others the pain of using the site Smiling

Here is the file on the temp GGL.o website: GGL_Kubuntu_Screenshots.tar.gz

This looks great and I will comment on that very soon

Olivier.

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Alright

Hi, Olivier!

ariadacapo wrote:

Since Uploading.com was trying to tell me I should install plugins to display more ads, try to contact local girls for sex, and run some programs to get rid of Windows system errors and optimize registry performance, I thought I would spare others the pain of using the site Smiling

Thank you; I couldn't find a better place to upload this file.

ariadacapo wrote:

This looks great and I will comment on that very soon

Alright.

Cheers!

ariadacapo's picture
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OK: so, I think we only

OK: so, I think we only need to have screenshots to finish the move to Fedora.

- Kubuntu

Gustavo, your screenshots look great. If I may criticise, I think they are too loaded.
The goal of the screenshots section is mostly to reassure Windows users that GNU/Linux is mostly like Windows, usage-wise. So, they simply need to recognise a taskbar and common applications.
I like your OO.o screenshots a lot (and your taskbar!), what if we take two of them, I'll add another screenshot this week-end? Then we can get done with it.

- Fedora

It would require quite a lot of work for me to install Fedora (my disk is full) and so far no-one has stepped forward with screenshots! I'll try to ask the fedora community directly this week-end, if it doesn't work I'll install it on Thursday nevertheless, so we can make this long-awaited release on Sat, Dec 1st at the latest.

Overall, we could gather up several screenshots and display them randomly, the way PolishLinux does it. This would allow more screenshots per distro, without encumbering the web page.

Gustavo's picture
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Alright
ariadacapo wrote:

- Kubuntu

Gustavo, your screenshots look great. If I may criticise, I think they are too loaded.
The goal of the screenshots section is mostly to reassure Windows users that GNU/Linux is mostly like Windows, usage-wise. So, they simply need to recognise a taskbar and common applications.
I like your OO.o screenshots a lot (and your taskbar!), what if we take two of them, I'll add another screenshot this week-end? Then we can get done with it.

Alright, I think it's OK.

ariadacapo wrote:

- Fedora

It would require quite a lot of work for me to install Fedora (my disk is full) and so far no-one has stepped forward with screenshots! I'll try to ask the fedora community directly this week-end, if it doesn't work I'll install it on Thursday nevertheless, so we can make this long-awaited release on Sat, Dec 1st at the latest.

I've downloaded and burned the FC6 DVD because I want to make the switch to Fedora. I've changed my mind because of these things:
1.- Kubuntu's localization sucks. I didn't notice this because I use my OS in English, so my girlfriend have been using the Spanish interface, but actually, it's not Spanish but Spanglish.
2.- I'm a KDE fan and I want to count with my KDE well-integrated into my OS: I was using OpenSUSE+KDE before Kubuntu, and I didn't have to do so many dirty hacks to get my OS working.
3.- IMO, Red Hat plays a more active roll in the Open Source community and has a better enterprise fame.

I'll discuss about this once I've given a try to Fedora.

ariadacapo wrote:

Overall, we could gather up several screenshots and display them randomly, the way PolishLinux does it. This would allow more screenshots per distro, without encumbering the web page.

Well, it's a good option too.

Cheers!

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I've used Fedora on many

I've used Fedora on many occasions and have never found it to be unstable at all. I would recommend Debian Sarge, though, if you want something completely rock solid that is going to be on 24/7 and works.

ariadacapo's picture
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@onlinebacon: I think

@onlinebacon: I think Fedora is a good choice given the quite extensive discussion we had... Let's go for it and see.

I have asked some help from the Fedora forum members and it's working. I've got one screenshot already.

More on that very soon.

O

Gustavo's picture
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Back to Kubuntu

Hello, everybody.

Gustavo wrote:

I've downloaded and burned the FC6 DVD because I want to make the switch to Fedora. I've changed my mind because of these things:
1.- Kubuntu's localization sucks. I didn't notice this because I use my OS in English, so my girlfriend have been using the Spanish interface, but actually, it's not Spanish but Spanglish.
2.- I'm a KDE fan and I want to count with my KDE well-integrated into my OS: I was using OpenSUSE+KDE before Kubuntu, and I didn't have to do so many dirty hacks to get my OS working.
3.- IMO, Red Hat plays a more active roll in the Open Source community and has a better enterprise fame.

I'll discuss about this once I've given a try to Fedora.

Well, I've switched back to Kubuntu because Fedora snapped my patience with the way it messes up the package management:
1.- Fedora's default package manager requires a lot of time to look for dependencies. This is the first distro I've used that requires so much time to do this. This problem is unpardonable: It needed almost two hours to realize the dependencies of the packages I wanted to install for the first time.
2.- Smart works better, but for some reason seams to be incompatible with livna.
3.- Almost every mirror repository I tried out was not available, even my default one. Also, in case they work, they are extremely slow.

On the other hand:

  • Fedora's fonts reminds me those days when I was a Linux newcomer using Mandrake 9. I was willing to do the dirty hack to fix this, but then I got mad with Fedora's package mismanagement and reinstalled Kubuntu.
  • Fedora's installer is not beginner-friendly at all.

However, I must say that FC6+KDE is extremely stable, even better than Kubuntu Dapper/Edgy. Also, unlike Kubuntu, its i18n support rocks.

Thus, I think we should reconsider promoting Fedora, honestly. If I was a common computer user (used to Windows, of course) and Fedora was the first Linux distro I use, I had removed "that annoying system" and switched back to my "infallible" Windows.

As for Kubuntu, I'd recommend it to those Spanglish-speakers that love doing some hacking from time to time.

Unfortunately, it looks like Ubuntu is the one that worths being promoted in GGL. But I have not given my faith up on a KDE-based distro for human beings: I will try Ark Linux ASAP.

Finally, if possible, please remove my votes for Kubuntu and Fedora and add them to Ubuntu only.

Cheers.

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Regarding package

Regarding package management that's something I was disappointed with as well. It's just too slow. Other things seemed fine more or less, but FC6 as it is right now doesn't seem all that polished as Ubuntu, I grant that.

FC7, which may even bear a completely new name, not to mention be fully redesigned, might be a whole other story.

ariadacapo's picture
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oh no!

Oh no!
This is such a disappointment. I was hoping better from Fedora.

Since the switch is *just almost* finished (I only have to set-up screenshots), I do not want to start the whole process of choosing a distro again. And even more, I don't want GGL to (have to) recommend Ubuntu only.

Hopefully the phrasing on GGL (on the "choose a distribution" page) will be good enough so that only determined people will want to go for Fedora.

I also have my fears regarding the development of Ubuntu. More on that soon.

Olivier.

libervisco's picture
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You don't need to dump

You don't need to dump Fedora now that you're deep into the switching process. Considering what Fedora 7 might be the existing concerns might as well become void and the choice of Fedora might become a great one.

ariadacapo's picture
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final review

Well really if we change our mind I can cancel it. Please have a look at the final files for the change (hosted on the temporary website)

I am very satisfied with the first changes, but quite uneasy with the screenshots section. I think it's good enough to go online, but it will be important to improve it rapidly.

There are two things that must come across:
- The fact that Fedora is for more advanced users;
- The image we give of GNU/Linux distributions must be welcoming for any user, primarily everyday ones.

Your comments and criticisms are welcome, and, unless you believe we should abandon the Fedora distro / make changes to this draft, the above versions will go online Saturday.