Skip to main content
Welcome guest. | Register | Login | Post

freedom of choice on Nuxified.org

13 replies [Last post]
mjk's picture
mjk
Offline
Joined: 2006-06-18

I wish the good people at Nuxified, who seem to care so much for the freedoms of others, would show some care for a fundamental right that is all too often forgotten.

The freedom of choice.

All to often, the term "freedom" is tossed into the faces users of Mac, Windows, BeOS etc, who are simply executing their right to choice.

If, Nuxified, was truly advocating, then there would no persecution, belittlement and harassment in the attitudes of Nuxified members. This is all to often seen in place like their IRC channel.

Nuxified.org has the potential to be a great site, to help people with choices, provide information on why some choices are better than others. However, at its stands, Nuxified.org seems to want to tell people of their _only_ choice.. This is a gross misunderstanding on how Nuxified can/could help people.

I am, for the record, a long time a free and open source developer and contributer. I have made both code contributions and monetary contributions to many projects. I am currently a GNOME foundation member.

It saddens me greatly to see people berate because their disagree with someone.

I don't expect my opinion to go down with the Nuxified.org members at all, infact, I almost expect this post to be deleted and my account locked. Why? Because I know that the attitude of most here is that there is not place for choice.

I urge Nuxified to become more user friendly, beating people into submission is not the right way to handle yourselves.

Remember, Freedom includes the right of choice.

Michael

P.S. Mac OS is released under an open source license. While it may not be the GPL, Apple executed their right to choose a license, which they did.

ma_d's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-07-07
You're kidding right?

Normally I'm nice to people in forums, but bullshit like this irritates me to the core:

Quote:

I don't expect my opinion to go down with the Nuxified.org members at all, infact, I almost expect this post to be deleted and my account locked. Why? Because I know that the attitude of most here is that there is not place for choice.

That sort of statement is the only thing that should get your post deleted. It's self-fulfilling because it's insulting to the moderators to say they'd delete your post because they disagree with it; and insulting moderators is a valid reason to delete posts.

Anyway, the problem with your argument is this: People have said OS X/Windows are not options because they restrict the freedom of those who use them. This is because the software, sometimes/often, causes lock-in. To say that advising against using this is taking away freedom is naive. It's a little like saying that illegalizing dictatorships in the world takes away freedom because the freedom to choose to live under a dictator is valid.

Sure it's valid, but it's also self-defeating! A better argument would be to not create a straw-man and then win, but instead to stick to the argument about OS X restricting the freedom of those who use it.
And you, finally, did that by pointing out that it is released under an open source license. Unfortunately, not all of it is, but some is and that's a good thing!

Let's try not to make a martyr of ourselves in order to make our post look more insightful than it is, ok? Your post should have read like this:

Quote:

Mac OS is released under an open source license. While it may not be the GPL, Apple executed their right to choose a license, which they did.

If your choice takes away choice in the future than what is it doing for choice/freedom? It's taking it away. But getting into this gets into what's starting to sound like some ridiculous philosophy, which means we should stop taking it seriously Eye.

mjk's picture
mjk
Offline
Joined: 2006-06-18
ma_d, I am sorry for my

ma_d, I am sorry for my "wipe sweeping" comments. However, my direct interaction with Nuxified people is on IRC and that is how they behave an act.

I have not made a matyr of myself. I, to be quiet frank, do not care for my account on this site. In fact, I have PM'ed to have it removed.

Nuxified IRC channel sports the topic:

a Free Software support community - Talk about GNU/Linux, *BSD, OpenSolaris and other Free Software. Need help?

However, if you mention something that is not GPL, then the problems start......

You claim that Windows restricts freedoms... I will let you in on a little secret... most people a) don't want the source to a printer driver* b) would not know what to do with it... c) could not hack on it.

My Grand mother is one of these people.

You assume people that use Windows or Mac OS or BeOS or whatever are not aware or have restricted freedoms, well, it a lot of cases, the oppisite is true. People have to struggle to get their hardware working, my 60 year old grandmother has no time for this... Applications that do not meet requirement... I was told to do my business accounts on paper with a pen!!! beep.. wrong. That is not how you run a business.

A university requirement on Windows based software? Will, would you change your career path because you needed a specific type of software?

I am pro GNU/Linux.. I am pro BSD, I am pro CHOICE.

I am anti assuming someone claiming to know my requirements better than me, I am anti being told I have no choice.

So far, this site is a place that omits a GNU dictatorship, rather that a site where correct advice can be sort and assistance can be give, regardless on the platform.

The change to a completely FLOSS platform is more often than not, not a possability nor easy!. However, helping people in areas when they can chang (including running FLOSS software on Windows/Mac/whatever) makes leaps and bounds in understanding...

Telling people they are stupid, yes, that is right, I have been called stupid, among other things, for having a requirement that is not fullfilled by FLOSS, is the completely *wrong* way to go about it.

Michael

free-zombie's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-03-08
mjk wrote: The freedom of
mjk wrote:

The freedom of choice.

we, and especially GetGNULinux.org, try, in part, to make this freedom and the ability to exercise it recognized. If people are using Windows, they might not know that they actually have a choice on PCs and/or while keeping their data.
IF people make our choice, we help them. If they don't, we are unlikely to. Everyone is free to leave Nuxified if they chose to. They will not be followed, spied on, attacked, harassed or publically insulted. If you can prove the opposite, then by all means do. We may have overlooked some problematic problem.

mjk wrote:

infact, I almost expect this post to be deleted and my account locked. Why? Because I know that the attitude of most here is that there is not place for choice.

Another freedom we happen to believe in is the freedom of speech. You are exercising that freedom.

*BSD isn't under the GPL, so part of your later post is flawed in this respect.

D3M0N's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-06-19
I want to be free to use

I want to be free to use what I want. _In my opinion_ its not hurting me, or anybody else. I'm still breathing and I'm still being just as productive as I would be using free software as I am using my "horrible proprietary software".

Proprietary software isn't taking away my choice. Apple isn't forcing me to not use free software software. OS X doesn't lock me out of running KDE in X11 that Apple supplies. I could even easily install Linux if I wanted to.

Comparing software to communism is the most far-fetched arguement I've heard, other than comparing software to air. They're nothing alike! Software is created by people. People are free to do with what they create. It's another freedom. I'm not going to be force fed open source software because of people who don't want any choice.

It's a CHOICE. I want my _freedom_ to use what I want, period.

tbuitenh's picture
Offline
Joined: 2005-12-21
mjk: Please stop trying to

mjk: Please stop trying to start a flamewar. It won't work here.

If you have a question about proprietary software, then don't ask it at nuxified. The purpose of nuxified is to answer questions about free software, not about proprietary software. Some of us (including me) might still try to help, though, but don't be surprised if others won't. Nuxified is not a general software help forum, it is a FREE (libre, not gratis) software help forum.
Well, I guess you get it by now Eye .

You claim to have been harassed in IRC. Please show us the IRC logs.

I think you know quite well the problem with the lack of freedom in MS windows is not about being able to hack the printer drivers. How about needing to buy the license again when you buy a new computer?

Anyway, we're not trying to discourage the use of windows, we're promoting the use of free software by showing its advantages (which are, of course, at the same time disadvantages of proprietary software).

Something else... if you look around a bit on nuxified.org, you'll see I advocate using proprietary software when equivalent free software does not exist. Do I get flamed for that? Nope... Do people call me stupid? Again nope... Maybe the response you get has something to do with your attitude rather than your message.

I dare to bet your account won't be deleted. It doesn't need to be to let you stop using it, now does it? And you might want to use it again when you have calmed down.

EDIT: I noticed your Fedora wiki page which you told us about has disappeared. (archive.org has a copy). I guess either you're trying to kill your online identity, or you made trouble there too. If it is the first, why don't you just ask to be deleted in a friendly way, instead of trying to trick it?

Anyway, back to topic.

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
I don't know where to

I don't know where to begin. Mjk, many of the things you said here simply aren't correct or are coming out of a gross misunderstanding. First of all, if you think your account will be deleted for you expressing an opinion with which we may disagree with then you apparently don't know the history of Libervis Network and the original intentions behind it. We are in fact in many ways maybe the most liberal site on the net. It has never yet happened that an account of an active user has been deleted and we always let everyone have a say no matter what. Feel free to ask tbuitenh and others who have been along from the beginning about my practices when it comes to moderation and he might tell you I am actually too soft. Eye

Second, Nuxified.org is, as tbuitenh pointed out, a Free (libre) Software support site and hence it offers help to those using Free Software. Even if you ask about Free Software running on Mac OS X and Windows we will help you if we know how, possibly throwing a friendly recommendation to at least try GNU/Linux. So yes, if you ask about audacity on Windows we have no problem with anyone who knows audacity inside out helping you with it.

It is about Free Software, no matter where you run it.

mjk wrote:

If, Nuxified, was truly advocating, then there would no persecution, belittlement and harassment in the attitudes of Nuxified members. This is all to often seen in place like their IRC channel.

I didn't see any harassment happening and if I did I would warn those who would actually do that. If someone expresses his opinion, say if someone says up front that he considers OS X or Windows an operating system which subverts users freedom to be in full control over his computer he did not say that you must not use OS X, that you must submit or else. This is not what is happening and this is not what has happened on IRC. It is an opinion with which you disagree with, and that's as far as it goes. The freedom to disagree is an important one and if we do not share same views on freedom than that's just it. That doesn't prevent you from coming to Nuxified.org to get help with whatever Free Software you are running and if you choose not to participate in philosophical discussions you don't need to. They are even rather rare on Nuxified.org, except sometimes in comments of some articles, because this is mainly a technical support site for Free Software users.

Most of the philosophical discussions you may have witnessed on IRC were in #libervis. After you guys started getting understandably annoyed by so many philosophical debates while you'd just rather talk about technical stuff (I have no problem with that) we have split into a separate #nuxified channel.

And even in #libervis as well as #nuxified we have been discussing not only GNU/Linux, but even OS X. At times, it even looked like it was a channel about OS X when bpfick and friends started talking about it. If you were there and if you remember you would also remember that all I did then was make a joke out of it. I didn't want to strictly enforce the topic of the channel.

So yes, in the end, all I have to say about your harassment claims is show me the proof! You've come accusing the wrong guys of intolerance.

Quote:

Nuxified.org has the potential to be a great site, to help people with choices, provide information on why some choices are better than others. However, at its stands, Nuxified.org seems to want to tell people of their _only_ choice.. This is a gross misunderstanding on how Nuxified can/could help people.

We are a Free Software support site. We cover only GNU/Linux, *BSD, OpenSolaris, Haiku OS, any other Free OS and any Free Software programs. We don't cover OS X and Windows. Does this mean you can't even mention it? No. It just means you can't expect people to jump on top of each other trying to help you with that. There are other support sites where you can get help with those OSs. That said, by generally covering a number of Free Operating systems, not to mention GNU/Linux distributions we do promote choice. We certainly don't only approve of Free Software licensed under GPL and we certainly don't require members to have a certain agreeing opinion to enter the site. Heck, you might think proprietary software is the best thing since sliced bread, but if you come to us for help with any Free Software you may be running anyway, we'll help!

Quote:

The change to a completely FLOSS platform is more often than not, not a possability nor easy!. However, helping people in areas when they can chang (including running FLOSS software on Windows/Mac/whatever) makes leaps and bounds in understanding...

I agree. Running 100% Free Software is only an ideal. And even then it is just my view and you may have another. Despite that difference we can help each other with Free Software we currently run.

I wont delete your account and I would like not to be forced to delete it at all (forced by your insistance, mind you). I hope we can still come to an understanding here and leave you as a community member.

Thank you
Danijel

Offline
Joined: 2006-11-13
Besides, if Grandma were to

Besides, if Grandma were to wake up one day and suddenly *wish* to hack on printer drivers, she should have the freedom to do so.

Offline
Joined: 2006-06-27
In Fairness

Libervisco, you said: quote: "At times, it even looked like it was a channel about OS X when bpfick and friends started talking about it. If you were there and if you remember you would also remember that all I did then was make a joke out of it. I didn't want to strictly enforce the topic of the channel."

I thank you for your patience and even-handedness in the IRC during those discussions. In fairness, you know that I spend 90% of my computer time on a GNU/Linux laptop. However, also in fairness, the OSX topic came up because of A CONTEXT. That context was how linux could be improved in the marketing area. You had asked the question, if Linux is so good, why isn't it growing faster in the being marketed to the world?

You, D3MON, myself and others entered into a running conversation about what lessons linux distributors might consider from Apple/OSX in improving the growth and popularity.

You also posted an aricle on "How Apple Will Not Dominate" and that, of course, drew many back and forth, and sometimes heated responses. There was a context here. Let's be fair.

I have enjoyed my time on nuxified/libervis and the channels. I will back out and back away.
Good Luck

Frederick (bpfick)

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
Yes, that is true

Yes, that is true Frederick. I am aware of those discussions and I am glad we had them. What I was talking about were occassions when you were talking about some OS X issues together. I just wanted to say that I wasn't and still am not so strict. In fact I don't think you can or should succesfully strictly enforce a certain topic on an IRC channel. It is a room where people with common interests talk which doesn't mean they have to talk about the strict channel topic *all* the time.

bpfick wrote:

I have enjoyed my time on nuxified/libervis and the channels. I will back out and back away.

Are you leaving? If yes, could we have a reason?

I don't know what had to lead to this, but I am willing to do anything in my power to correct it if I did anything wrong. If I made a mistake somewhere along the way it wasn't with ill intents. I never expected people would start leaving because of philosophical disagreements on a site which doesn't even focus so much on a philosophy as much on offering technical support for Free Software (and touching philosophy only in as much to make a distinction between what is or isn't Free Software).

Thank you

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
Let's work this out

Just for the record, bpfick explained his reasons to me off the board.

At this point I am willing to audit the attitude of Nuxified.org and in which way can we satisfactorily improve it not to discourage any user that comes with even little interest in Free Software.

I am giving everyone who has issues with the way Nuxified.org and its community comes across to them, to express their concerns in a constructive way. Please participate and share your thoughts. Please, mjk, if you are reading this, join us. No matter all disagreements and misunderstandings your message is getting through. You have a chance to work this out with us. Not every site is willing to audit their ways based on one mans post. Give it a chance!

Thank you

tbuitenh's picture
Offline
Joined: 2005-12-21
Good luck with your audit.

Good luck with your audit. I wonder if you'll find anything.

So far I have only seen deliberate misinterpretations and unfounded accusations from apple fanboys.
Sorry, but I'm getting a bit fed up with accusations that we're saying things like "USERS of proprietary software are immoral". Oh, and I saw libervisco stepping in that trap by trying to explain users of proprietary software are not immoral when not fully informed about the possibility of free software.

Users never are immoral. The only immoral ones here are the vendors of proprietary software.

Listen up guys, nobody gives a damn (or should give a damn) what software you choose to use. If you want to be exploited, then go ahead and be exploited. All we (should) do is showing the other options, and give some advice based on our knowledge and opinions. We're here to help, not to convert anyone to some free software sect.

As for the accusations of smearing and full frontal attacks in response to the mere mention of proprietary software, I repeat: show us the IRC logs, show us the forum posts. Show us or stop trying to smear us.

Thank you.

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
Quote: Good luck with your
Quote:

Good luck with your audit. I wonder if you'll find anything.

Well I think some progress has been made, although the "audit" should also include some input from the "injured parties". And they did talk, just not over this thread. Smiling

Quote:

Oh, and I saw libervisco stepping in that trap by trying to explain users of proprietary software are not immoral when not fully informed about the possibility of free software.

Part of the progress being made is my realization of that and the subsequent admission.

Quote:

Users never are immoral. The only immoral ones here are the vendors of proprietary software.

Yes, that is our point of view. They may disagree and they are free to disagree. Noone's belief should require everyone's agreement.

Quote:

We're here to help, not to convert anyone to some free software sect.

Absolutely. This said, I invite bpfick and mjk to come back without fear. Do you use Free Software guys? I know you do. If you want to discuss anything about it you're welcome to Nuxified.org. We don't care what else do you use besides Free Software. Caring about that is beyond the scope of this site, which is to affirmatively promote Free Software and help people use it.

ma_d's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-07-07
I think Grandma will enjoy

I think Grandma will enjoy having those drivers after the company goes out of business because people had the right to distribute them as they please.

And when Joe hacker updates them for the next OS release she'll be happy to have support for her printer from a company which no longer exists. But asking people to think this far ahead seems to be like asking them to do math: They just can't do it.

It's not a popular opinion but mine is that you shouldn't own a PC if you can't perform basic administration or do not have someone who can for you. Computers are complex, and because so many depend on them all networked together incompetence can cost everyone else time and money (See "worm").
It's not that there are few people who could administrate a PC. It's that people want to buy one and have it just work. Plus, they want it to be powerful. Well, power and safety rarely go hand-in-hand, and when they do it's usually in forms of irritation which you shut off to get rid of the "safety." It's just the same in the computer world: If you want a PC application that's powerful, add a scripting language (See JavaScript), but be prepared to reap the consequences (See Secunia on any web browser, look for JavaScript).

The PC is not a device for idiots, people need to read a book before they invest $1,000 in something to spend many hours on and possibly clog up network traffic when they fail to keep it up.

So, Grandma doesn't need to hack her print drivers. But if she can't set them up it's time to read, or get her grandson to read for her and make sure