Skip to main content
Welcome guest. | Register | Login | Post

Organizing the tremulous component of the gamefest

29 replies [Last post]
libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04

This is for everyone interested in playing tremulous in the upcoming game fest. It is one of the most popular games and its community has been most forthcoming about this festival. In addition it is also the most unique among the games currently having enough players to start immediately after the launch of the fest.

I have drafted a guidelines page for tremulous on our wiki: http://www.libervis.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tremulous_Component

And that's really what this thread is about. Please take a look at it and make questions or suggestions below so that we can perfect it towards the final version.

These guidelines are to be seen within the context of the overall game fest rule set here: http://www.libervis.com/wiki/index.php?title=Rule_set

Thank you

Offline
Joined: 2007-10-10
My Thoughts: Camping: The

My Thoughts:

Camping:

The camping section should be taken out entirely. Camping is a strategy, if you don't know how to deal with it, too bad for you. It is not game-breaking, and is not against any community designed rules either.

Points:

You are right when you say tremulous is unique, and in my opinion (and the opinion of many others) awarding points by kills/deaths is utterly retarded. The better the player, the less kills you need to win. I die more than anyone I know, yet I win games consistently with less than 10 kills. You will have to come up with something better than this.

Sudden Death:

20 minutes is rather short, and you have mentioned nothing as to which mode you will play. Of course I go with SD mode 1, allowing NO rebuliding to be as close to 1.1 as possible.

More to come later.

Khalsa

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
About camping I realize

About camping I realize this is a bit controversial thing. There are people who consider it a valid strategy and some who consider it as bad or even unfair.. I guess we'll have to try to strike a balance of some sort..

Regarding points we'll figure something out. As mentioned in the draft, an option is to have tremulous rated separately and hence have a separate winner for it, though we'd prefer to include it in the counting for the overall game fest winner. There may still be a way to fairly approximate the deserved points for each player after a match. Some things that come to mind are for players to vote on each other, to give everyone an equal number of points for winning (considering that if they acted as a team - as one - they all deserve equal reward) and .. well if anyone has any other ideas. Smiling

As for sudden death, well your suggestion is as valid to me as any. Smiling It is negotiable. The time limit to sudden death was made up more in order to shorten the amount of time necessary for one match with four rounds. Of course, we can perhaps find a different scheme for matches so that they have less rounds, but more time.. The concern is to allow every team to have their say on a map and to show what they can do as both alien and human and this current 4-round scheme seems like the only way to do that..

All suggestions are welcome. Smiling

Cheers

Offline
Joined: 2006-03-28
Well, as has been said

Well, as has been said camping is quite controversial (though in real life I love camping, having a nice BBQ, a nice big camp-fire, ...).

I think camping can be seen as part of a strategy, since it can be useful to place somebody in a strategic position. Also it has it's equivalent in snipers in real warfare.
What I personally don't like about camping is that it's dead-boring, but that's the camping player's problem, not mine. ;-)

So, although I don't really like campers, I also don't have any heavyweight arguments against them.

Offline
Joined: 2007-10-09
unlagged

My preference would be no timelimit and no sudden death as they tend to favor the currently stronger team and not the overall stronger team. But if we must pick on, and we must, 20 minutes is as good as any other. The sudden death mode is not really relevant because sudden death is unfair anyway.

If there will not be any rules against camping share and donate should be off because otherwise after 2 minutes of camping a goon will be available ....

Now, for the real controversy: g_unlagged 0.

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
Looks like everyone has a

Looks like everyone has a different opinion, but not yet enough opinions to consolidate on something, at least regarding camping and sudden death.

It will obviously be hard to impossible to please everyone, but the objective here is to strike a balance that would come close enough to everyone's preferences, a bit of a compromise.

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
First of all, I think the

First of all, I think the biggest problem we'll have with deciding on the final rule set is lack of feedback. With only 3 people responding each with differing opinions it is hard to come to any sort of conclusion without acting like a benevolent dictator or something.. Please invite other clan members and others who may want to play tremulous in this fest to come to this topic, check out the current rule set and post their opinion. That is simply the best way we can come up with rules that will make everyone (almost) happy.

Now on to my current thinking about the given issues:

Camping:

I think we can be a little bit more lenient here if most people don't actually have a problem with it. The extreme solution is to delete the camping section and simply leave it be. Maybe a more balanced solution would be to add a word of discouragement of camping, but without any penalization to back it up. It's value would then be as a mere reference point that can be used by those who want to discourage camping in a given match, something they can point to as a guideline.

Sudden Death:

I am not sure why Sudden Death would be unfair, as IJsje suggested (please clarify). It applies to both teams equally. From 2 people (gasp) who said something about SD one is for it, but allowing more than 20 minutes and mode 1 and the other prefers to be against it. Eye

Not exactly enough to decide anything. Eye Still, since IJsje would accept it anyway, the current proposal can be to have 25 to 30 minutes before SD mode 1.

Points:

EDIT: Alternative points system proposed!. The new system is much more suitable to being "universal" (applying to all games, not just Tremulous or any other) and I think it simpler and fairer.

Unlagged:

I searched a bit and came to this tremulous forums topic. The poll is almost 50/50. Controversial indeed!

Well, with enough feedback here from clan members we might be able to reach a majority agreement if nothing else.. Someone in that thread said most European servers don't use unlagged and since most clans who registered here are from Europe this makes me think unlagged does not have to be used anyway.

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
Qualifications Originally

Qualifications

Originally this was meant to be based on the first points system, but since I proposed an alternative to it, it's no longer applicable (and probably for the better). So this is what we've got.

Split into groups in which each team plays with each other team:

Say we have 10 teams, we split them into 2 groups with 5 teams and then have each team play every other team in a group. That's overall 10 matches per group and hence 20 matches in Tremulous Qualifications. The final chart would then be determined by the number of wins per team. If we take the rule that bottom third (third with least wins) is disqualified, then from 10 teams approximately 3 teams would be disqualified and the rest 7 would proceed.

Play double elimination:

We can have all 10 teams be put in a double elimination bracket made for 10 teams and determine a chart this way from which 3 teams would be disqualified.

Play single elimination

Same as above, but it's a bit simpler bracket with less matches involved.

Tournament

This is what follows after qualifications. This is where we also have a choice between single or double elimination, though there is an even more complex triple elimination.

There are some useful brackets available on http://www.tournamentdesign.org/ and http://darters.com/

Opinions welcome!

Offline
Joined: 2007-09-10
Well, I don't know Tremulous

Well, I don't know Tremulous well enough yet, but this reminds of the backdooring controversy in DotA...
My view on the issue was: if it's possible in the game, then it's legal.

But this is an issue on which the experienced Tremulous players should decide. ^^'

Is it hard to counter camping players? If so then, yes, it makes the game unbalanced.

About backdooring in DotA:
DotA is a Warcraft 3 mod where the goal is to destroy the enemy's main building (tree of life or frozen throne). To do this the players usually have to destroy the defense towers first.
But in earlier versions it was possible to bypass the towers to destroy the main building directly if one was powerful enough to do so. (I haven't played anymore since a long time, but I think that now it's necessary to take down the defensive towers before destroying the buildings behind them.)
This technique was called backdooring and sometimes enabled apparently loosing teams to still win the game (or quick wins by skilled players).

Backdooring is something that is generally accepted in strategy games (cf dropping in Starcraft or bypassing defenses with radar-jammers in Total Annihilation), but since some see DotA as more of a team-based FPS (making frags is more important) and because it was easy to do and hard to counter in earlier versions (main reason), it was controversial.

Personally, I liked it altough I agree that it's kind of disgraceful. ^^

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
KIAaze wrote:My view on
KIAaze wrote:

My view on the issue was: if it's possible in the game, then it's legal.

One can counter that claim with "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should" or "Just because it is possible doesn't make it right." Eye

Of course, what is right and what isn't is what the discussion is about really.

KIAaze wrote:

Is it hard to counter camping players? If so then, yes, it makes the game unbalanced.

As CY on IRC said camping should be clarified in this thread. When talking about camping we're not talking about one or two players staying in a safety of a base somewhere. We're talking about a whole team decidedly remaining in a base, avoiding all confrontation aside from defense in order to gain enough experience credits (through defense only) to become strong enough to kill off an enemy in one single strike. So, is it hard to counter camping players? If they're really good at it, it might not be hard, it might be impossible and I suppose that's where the problem comes from really, why is it so controversial.

Consider what the enemy is faced with when the opponent is camping. Say you're an alien team and you keep rushing on the camping team just to get blasted by a turret or one of the players standing behind them. Each time you get shot that player gains some experience credits and essentially becomes stronger. You're rarely going to kill the camping team players so you wont get enough experience points to counter them, while they WILL get stronger and stronger. When they get strong enough, their strength will likely be way disproportional to yours and all they'd have to do is one coordinated strike at your base to win.

Now I'm not taking any sides officially here simply because, for one, I am an organizer so shouldn't be too biased and second, I don't have that much experience with Tremulous so perhaps some little details are oblivious to me.. there are apparently people who believe that even if a team is camping, the rushing team can be efficient enough at taking them down before they get strong enough (and in FFA games this is exactly what happens frequently, where it is the camping team that loses).

Offline
Joined: 2007-10-09
sudden death

On the sudden death issue

In most of the clan wars I played the advantage goes from one team to another and the offensive/defensive team switches. This is simply because the offensive team is losing credits and the defensive team is gaining credits (unless the offense is fully successful). When sudden death is enabled (and especially the larger values) there will be a lot of hesitation to attack and use of camping strategies to prevent being the team with less credits at sudden death.

Another problem with sudden death is that it doesn't actually forces an ending to a game, still allowing for ties.

Unlagged

Well, [F]lame, =V= and (CY), last time we talked, told me they didn't like unlagged. {tHc} has said they play with or without. For the other teams I do not know.

Sharing and donating

This should really be put in the rules. There are modified game servers in use which allow for sharing of credits with teammates. Some clans like to play with, some without, but most don't care as long as it is known with what settings they play.

Leaving the team

Once a team has lost the ability to spawn (and can't regain it), on public severs, it is common for players to leave their team to follow their teammates in their last struggle and (usually vain) attempts to win. This sometimes has the side affect of team gaining stage 3 because of the lesser number of player. Leaving your team should therefor be disallowed if the team can still upgrade because it might cause an unfair advantage.

Some other things on mods

There are currently many different versions of tremulous being played. For a tournament these settings should be defined. I'll just list some things here and my preferred settings:

g_unlagged 0
g_unlagged disables the use of evading and prediction skills in favor of aiming, because any monkey can point and click it should be off

g_shove 0
g_shove lets entities mass and movement interact, creating lag and weird behavior while fighting with no advantages at all

g_antiwarp/sv_antilag and that kind of stuff
vain attempts to compensate for bad connection from clients. Should be disabled for tournament. Instead bad connections should not be allowed

g_dretchPunt 1
I do not know a single server with has this zero. It makes dretches invulnerable to team damage.

Non-settable mod-features.

nerfed dragoons.
Some guy who didn't like getting killed by goons so much and decided they needed a nerf (and another, and another...). I prefer the non nerfed goon and
especially no 99 damage pounce.

Booster poisoning battle suits.
Well, all servers have it....

That's all of the things I can think of at the moment.

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
Thank you for the input

Thank you for the input IJsje.

IJsje wrote:

When sudden death is enabled (and especially the larger values) there will be a lot of hesitation to attack and use of camping strategies to prevent being the team with less credits at sudden death.

Isn't this a sort of a responsibility of each team? They choose whether to be offensive or defensive and bear the consequences by the game's end, which sudden death merely accelerates (from what I've seen at least).. Not that I'm arguing, just addressing some concerns. I have an impression that sudden death is a standard part of Tremulous games and that many might want it.. Let's hear other's opinions.

About unlagged, CY says Europeans don't play with unlagged at all so if teams stay predominantly European I think that's pretty much a non issue.

Regarding sharing/donating, I agree. We'd need to decide on a default policy for it though, on or off? Maybe smart thing would be off, as the least we can do to discourage some devious camping strategies. Eye

IJsje wrote:

Once a team has lost the ability to spawn (and can't regain it), on public severs, it is common for players to leave their team to follow their teammates in their last struggle and (usually vain) attempts to win.

Yes, that sounds like fun actually, but..

IJsje wrote:

This sometimes has the side affect of team gaining stage 3 because of the lesser number of player. Leaving your team should therefor be disallowed if the team can still upgrade because it might cause an unfair advantage.

That considered, I agree. I'm thinking though it would be a good idea if Tremulous had a way of dealing with this. If a team member cannot respawn his place is still counted so as not to accelerate stage progression, despite what the actual player does afterwards (like join spectators). In a way, a "ghost" feature. Smiling

About settings you mentioned it all seems reasonable to me so far. But, let's hear others out too. Smiling

Cheers

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
I've just had an idea about

I've just had an idea about how to deal with the camping issue.

We can get all clans to state whether they consider camping acceptable or not and put this next to their name in our guidelines. Then the rules would go like this. When there is a match between two clans who stated they don't accept camping, it would in that match be forbidden. If a match is between teams that do accept camping, it would be allowed.

If a match is between teams of which one accepts camping and the one doesn't then we can either revert to a "default" option (discourage camping) or have the two teams decide who is to make a concession, the one who accepts or the one who doesn't accept camping.

But in any case, this might be the best way to address this without forcing one way on all where the only special cases left would be when two teams are on the opposing sides of the fence on the issue.. when a default rule or compromise should resolve it.

What do you think?

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
No camping

It was pointed out to me the flaw of the above suggestion of mine. It would result in people playing essentially different games (based on game rules and settings) instead of all games being equal for all. So if that option doesn't work I'm really left with only three choices neither of which is perfect:

- Allow camping as pleased
- Be completely neutral and have absolutely no rule on either (almost the same as allowing it)
- Outright deny camping as an acceptable strategy for this tournament

Now all things considered the first two options would probably result in some awkward situations. Some would accuse others of camping and hence possibly winning unfairly yet others would defend camping as a valid strategy. So instead of a tournament we'd at the same time have a perpetual argument.

So I have to make that tough decision. Smiling And I decide to disallow camping from this tournament. Of course feel free to challenge this if you are really eager. I hope nobody decides not to participate because of this, since there are plenty of other ways to win a game than camping. This is by all means not an authoritative vote for either side of the discussion in the overall Tremulous community. It just means that for this tournament camping wont be allowed.

Thank you

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
No *base camping*

Just to make it clear what exactly is being disallowed. It is base camping, when a team stays in its base accumulating points and progressing into stages as they, from the safety of their base, kill everything that comes near, playing completely defensively and without any offensive initiatives. This makes the other team at a disadvantage because they either have to be the one to rush out and often get killed or they too end up waiting so both teams wait forever and nothing happens until the time limit is hit and its end up being a draw. Laughing out loud

So, if you wait in the middle of the map somewhere, or hiding and plotting a surprise attack outside of your base, this is allowed. Basically, as long as you go out of your base instead of perpetually sticking with it, it is allowed.

Of course, if you decide to move your base to somewhere else and then camp in the moved base perpetually this is still camping.

Offline
Joined: 2007-09-25
I might not end up being in

I might not end up being in this anyhow if this turns out to be predominantly European, but nonetheless...

On unlagged: The issues with having it on are that no one has to have prediction skills as far as tracehit weapons go, usually, and it IS a little bit harder to dodge, but I've gotten used to it and it becomes almost just as easy to dance in. However, I don't mind playing in lagged when I have a ping of around 80 or below. Yet high pings with no unlagged would mostly, if not fully, eliminate any competition from non-Euro players.

Unlagged may take away prediction skills as a factor, but having lagged makes it so some players need to have better prediction skills than others simply because of where they live. If your ping is too high, you can't adjust. Example: Someone in Europe is playing in the competition, and they happen to live very close to the competitition server(s). So they have a ping of around, let's say, 20. They won't even have to lead in the least bit as far as I know. Yet other players in Europe might have pings of, say 50-80. So they will have to lead their shots while these much lower pings won't have to worry about that.

On the other hand, if you turn unlagged on, some of those people could be used to leading their shots while others might not be, and so, although everyone can hit things buy simply shooting directly at their target, some people will have trouble adapting to the change of unlagged being on.

That's just my opinion though. I would think that if unlagged was kept off, it wouldn't simply be mostly European players, it would be all European players. I've tried playing with 150 ping with no unlagged before. You back people into walls with aliens and it is still difficult to hit them, unfortunately. Then again, with unlagged on, I would assume that many European players would raise negative opinions themselves.

For the rest of the proposed settings, they all look great to me.

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
These are some good points.

These are some good points. So in short what this basically amounts to is this:

unlagged on = non-EU players are in
unlagged off = non-EU players are out

And that's, of course, based on the fact that we have mostly EU players.

It's apparently a trade off, so the question is, is it worth to have unlagged on for non-EU participation? I think it would largely depend on how many potential non-EU players we have as opposed to the general feeling of EU players towards the unlagged feature.

Offline
Joined: 2007-09-25
If unlagged was on, many

If unlagged was on, many Euro players might be out in return for non-Euro players, unfortunately, and looking at how most Euro players don't approve of unlagged and how the majority of the players is currently European, it's unlikely it will be put on.

So, unfortunately for myself and other non-Euro players, perhaps everyone, it doesn't appear that a tournament with European players playing with non-Euro players would ever work to the satisfaction of both playerbases unless unlagged was perfected. *cough*

However, I don't see many U.S. players who know about this tournament. I think word should start to be spread about this in non-Euro areas, while there's still time.

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
You're right. If we get

You're right. If we get enough US players we'll either perhaps be able to make a more worthy compromise (although it doesn't seem likely) or have two tournaments, one for non-EU and another for European players (which seems more acceptable to all IMO).

I've posted in Tremulous forums and really everyone is welcome. If current players can invite others, including people from US this would be great. One other idea is to have some respected and good players promote the Tremulous tournaments of this fest through in-game messages, just mentioning freedomware-gamefest.com and saying that there is a Tremulous part in it. If they are a clan, or know a clan they can proceed to clan registration thread. If they are an individual they can go to the main registration thread. It's all linked from freedomware-gamefest.com.

Cheers

Offline
Joined: 2007-09-25
Hello its Dhruv here on

Hello
its Dhruv here on your http://www.libervis.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tremulous_Component
players section it says Thruv. That is probably me if i am not mistaken.

At this point i would also like to regiter the clan for this tourney:
{S}pikers
www.spikers.owns.it or www.spikers.2fear.com
Information that you want me to provide please do so by alerting me.
Thankyou.

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
Yes, sorry, it was a typo..

Yes, sorry, it was a typo.. fixed now. Smiling

Glad to see another clan joining. The clan registrations topic is here. It has the info on what you need to provide, quite simple really. Smiling

Cheers

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
I've updated the guidelines

I've updated the guidelines draft for the Tremulous tournament modifying the camping, qualifications and final tournament sections and adding the points system section.

In short I solidified some of the rules. Base camping is disallowed. The qualifications will disqualify a bottom third of all teams (removed the option of not disqualifying anyone). Final tournament will be in single elimination bracket (since matches are fairly long perhaps it's better than having double elimination).

And finally the points system was defined based on the standard one. Points are now applied to a whole team rather than each player of the team. I also defined the forfeit situation, which is, in short, going to be discouraging towards teams not showing up in time and in whole to participate in a scheduled match. Forfeit is the worst score one can get with in a match because it gives no point to the forfeited team while the other team gets an automatic win.

Depending on the agreement with the other team the match can be rescheduled only once, which is also consistent with universal rules.

Offline
Joined: 2007-11-15
Thoughts

A thought on Sharing/Donating: Since the object is to kill the opponents base share should be disabled as it encouraged killmongering. One or two players will roam the map just for kills. The game gets prolonged.

Sudden Death: The version of SD is important b/c of the varied build methods of aliens/humans. PT's SD is appropriate so the aliens can't rebuilt OM and have an advantage in that they are able to sustain high level attacks. The teams are then more equally weighted in SD.

Camping: Camping is built into the strategy of tremulous. Both teams are capable of camping. In the end it won't win you the game unless you combine it with other strategy. Rushing a camping team is poor strategy. In S3 of tremulous camping is nearly impossible and often if a team soley camps it will lose the match b/c of lack of credits.

Offline
Joined: 2007-09-25
While that may be true in

On sharing: While that may be true in public games, organized games will have much more strategy involved. What with clans participating, there won't be many, if not any, people wandering around that will become easy prey for a single player.

Still, although I prefer on, I guess off would be ok.

Offline
Joined: 2007-11-22
Sharing: I'm pretty neutral

Sharing: I'm pretty neutral on this one, I can play with or without.

SD: I think having no rebuilding at all is best, because it keeps better balance between teams

Unlagged: On, because I live in Asia and I never get any server under 200 ping. I can't play without unlagged, and even with it I start having trouble at 300+ pings.

Offline
Joined: 2006-03-28
Unlagged
Amanieu wrote:

Unlagged: On, because I live in Asia and I never get any server under 200 ping. I can't play without unlagged, and even with it I start having trouble at 300+ pings.

Same for me. Yesterday I surprisingly managed to find a server with a ping of 57 (don't remember which of the games it was, and probably must have been a server somewhere here in HK, probably even using the same ISP), but all the others usually start at 200 and more.
I tried it and it's not very much pleasure when you think you should hit the target but for some strange reason you don't.
So, if unlagged can help Amanieu, me and possible other games and does not interfere (too much) with the ones that don't have problems without it I think we should absolutely use it.

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
HSP.HK is the server in

HSP.HK is the server in Hong Kong, also called Relimination in the server list. Maybe you played that one reptiler.

Anyway, we play 2 maps with two rounds on each, giving each team a chance to play once as aliens and once as humans. Each map is chosen by each team.

So this is how we try to make things fairer with lags. If your team is largely in HK and another team largely in EU, your team plays the EU clan's map on an HK server and the EU clan plays your map on an EU server. So basically you get to play favourite map on an unfavourable ping and un-favourable map on an favourable ping. This way both teams have same chances.

Also, if both teams agree to help themselves with unlagged it can be turned on for that particular match.

Since you two aren't teamed up yet you should be in a single team with anyone else who is from Hong Kong. I think, if vanSG confirms, that'll be at least 3 players from Asia. You need 5 for a complete Asia team or otherwise you'll probably get someone from US or EU to fill in.

Offline
Joined: 2007-11-20
unlagged

Now that the teams and more importantly groups are formed, I believe you must have unlagged ON because in group one, team 1 is all american/asia and everyother clan in that group is in europe. this means high pings, so i believe unlagged should definitely be on.

libervisco's picture
Offline
Joined: 2006-05-04
We've been through this.

We've been through this. Eye

Unlagged will be on when both teams in a match agree to turn it on. Otherwise the default is off.

So when there is a match between an american and an European team either of the two can propose unlagged to be on and if the other team accepts it will be turned on for that match. I believe in most cases the vote should be positive. While EU teams generally are against unlagged, I suppose they can make some exceptions in exceptional matches. Eye

Cheers

Offline
Joined: 2007-11-20
also,

i would like to point out that leaving at team after your spawns are dead doesn't reduce the amount of kills needed to gain the next stage, it does however reduce the amount of kills needed to get to the stage after that.

ex.

1 team in stage one
their eggs get kiled
players leave team except for living one
amount of kills he needs until stage 2 remains the same
amount of kills he needs until stage 3 (assuming he gains stage 2) is less.