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Would you like libervis network to provide services to your Free/OpenSource project?

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tbuitenh's picture
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Joined: 2005-12-21

This idea was discussed on #libervis irc last night, I would like to get some more opinions about it. Note that although I am a libervis.com moderator, I cannot speak on behalf of libervis network. Whether or not this idea will be implemented is up to Danijel.

The service will be provided to active long-time members of nuxified.org.

What is in it for you?

- project website at nameofyourproject.nuxified.com
-- maybe also an email address

- project management and version control software, probably trac and svn will be provided, but if you want something else, that can be provided as well

- project forum integrated with the nuxified.org forums (by use of tags)
-- no need to worry about forum spam
-- a community that knows about your project and can answer questions about it that are not too specific to your project (for example if it is a python program, questions about installing extra python modules)
-- a community with other projects that could cooperate with yours (for example I think I might use EasyLFS when I will make a Passiflora-based software appliance)

-(NEW) scale: multiple cooperating projects may get help (such as mirroring files) more easily than a single project

What is in it for libervis network?

- ads on your project website (gueranteed not to be against Free software or good taste (see libervis advertising policy)

- more visitors on nuxified.org

- being your obvious first choice partner if your project gets big in a commercial sense and you might need some other services

- maybe a "supported by nuxified" note/logo in an about dialog/section/file of your software?

What else?

-(NEW) the download section of your project website must contain some text asking to donate either bandwidth (by mirroring or bittorrent) or money to pay for bandwidth. You may of course have a second donation link that will pay to you instead of to libervis network.

Why not another site?

- community!

- sourceforge is a proprietary program

- others could be fine alternatives, but you have less influence on what tools will be provided to you

Why not host your project yourself?

- ISPs usually have restrictions on what you install on their servers

- a server at home connected through adsl isn't exactly the most reliable way to do it

- it's more work!

I would like to see your opinions, suggestions, criticism, etc

Thanks,

Taco

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Joined: 2006-03-28
I have to say that I really

I have to say that I really like that idea, for obvious reasons. ;-)
For my project it is hard to find good hosting, so at this moment I am utilizing part of a friends webspace for the image and a Wiki, and the forum of my website for some info. The big problem seems to be that I have a CD-image which weighs nearly 500MB. Hosters like SourceForge or BerliOS either tell me that's too big, since, like SF, they want to keep a version-history or just state that their service does not include distros.
So, having some space, best would be if it's enough for two images, since I'm also working now on EasyLFS64, which I wouldn't need to worry about if it'll still be available in some time would be very good.
Also having the community around the project. Most of you have already read a couple of things about EasyLFS, so you have an idea what it is. Which in turn could also help if people really end up trying it.

tbuitenh's picture
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I didn't think of the size

I didn't think of the size of EasyLFS... I hope that's not a problem. I guess if it gets popular, we should try to get it spread through bittorrent as much as possible, so the server won't suffer too much. Maybe this is the kind of thing where having a community can help, but I wonder how many of us can and would like to donate bandwidth.

It's only a temporary problem, though. Once a distro gets lots of users, it's going to get mirrored by universities and such.

---

I just ran df -h on the server, space should not be a problem if we don't host other distros too, but I wonder about bandwidth. The (virtual) server appears to be the one in the top row of the table on this page. It could handle about 200 downloads of EasyLFS per month, if the server was used for nothing else, that is. This is only a guess, but I think libervis could host the images if there are less than 5 downloads per day.

This probably is a bad idea, but we could put a paypal button between visitors and big downloads.

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Joined: 2006-03-28
Well, I actually don't

Well, I actually don't think that it'll get 5 downloads a day. So far it still is pretty much unknown, though I think this place in the spotlight (the Wiki doesn't get indexed by Google at all...) could help to get a bit more popularity, which in turn could cause more than 5 downloads a day.
Actually, I think what I'd really need would be some big sponsor who doesn't care about how many gigs per month people get from their server(s). But that of course is hard to find, especially with an unknown special-interest distro like mine.
Well, let's see if that Symantec-guy I gave a CD with the current beta to will contact me about it. ;-) At least he seemed interested and said he'd try it out.

Also I'v recently seen a nice offer about a root- or vserver (don't remember which) for just a few Euros/month. Problem is that it states there "bandwidth inclusive", but that they reserve the right to charge for extra GBs if the site gets over a "normal maximum", without stating how much that may be.

libervisco's picture
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Joined: 2006-05-04
Thanks for laying it out

Thanks for laying it out Taco.

All that was said stands. About the bandwidth it shouldn't be a problem right now and later on we can set up bittorrent and I'd regularly seed it if needed via both my ADSL line and from the actual server.

Having mirrors is always a good thing though so it sure will not be limited only to a libervis server, but right now you gotta start somewhere, have a home somewhere, and right now libernod (our server) can offer that much. Smiling

Edit: Btw, if it becomes financially justifiable and affordable in any way, I do plan on upgrading my VPS package to 512Slice there which doubles the resources. Eye

Cheers

tbuitenh's picture
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double size me
libervisco wrote:

I do plan on upgrading my VPS package to 512Slice there which doubles the resources.

A whopping 10 downloads per day! Okay, probably a few more because the bandwidth required by the other things on the server doesn't increase.

The problem with hosting very large files is that it just doesn't make sense financially. There's no way the ads someone sees before downloading are going to pay enough for the bandwidth used. On the other hand, if it is going to pay back in a different way later, it might be a sane investment.

I guess everything will work out if the EasyLFS page will ask those reading the download section to donate bandwidth (mirrors, bittorrent) or money to pay for bandwidth (so we can upgrade to 512Slice or better). The other projects hosted by libervis network could be required to do the same, even though they will probably use much less bandwidth.

EDIT: being bigger than a single project, libervis network might be in a better position to ask other organizations to mirror files.

libervisco's picture
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tbuitenh wrote: The
tbuitenh wrote:

The problem with hosting very large files is that it just doesn't make sense financially. There's no way the ads someone sees before downloading are going to pay enough for the bandwidth used.

It really depends. If the page would have a high rank and good traffic it might actually pay for it, and this comes with the popularity of the project which in turn means more bandwidth spent. However if there is a proper balance between monetization of popularity and the actual amount of bandwidth spent it could work. Minimizing bandwidth use without diminishing the ease in which users would download is key to this.

tbuitenh wrote:

I guess everything will work out if the EasyLFS page will ask those reading the download section to donate bandwidth (mirrors, bittorrent) or money to pay for bandwidth (so we can upgrade to 512Slice or better).

Yes that's a good way of attempting to minimize bandwidth use.

tbuitenh wrote:

EDIT: being bigger than a single project, libervis network might be in a better position to ask other organizations to mirror files.

I agree, but I think it would still help the most to convince such organizations into the usefulness and importance of projects like EasyLFS. I agree though that presenting them as affiliated to Libervis Network provides a bit of context to it - as in "this project already has its backers". Smiling

tbuitenh's picture
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mirror, mirror on the web
libervisco wrote:

I agree though that presenting them as affiliated to Libervis Network provides a bit of context to it - as in "this project already has its backers". Smiling

Not only that, I think it is also more easy to convince them to mirror all libervis/nuxified supported projects at once than it is to convince them to mirror any of the projects by itself.

If we keep all downloads in a place like nuxified.com/download/projectname/file, then they can simply rsync the entire download directory, mirroring multiple projects for the administrative effort of mirroring a single project.

When you're really big, you don't care about disk space or bandwidth, you care about time.

libervisco's picture
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Joined: 2006-05-04
Ok, I'm gonna ask my host

Ok, I'm gonna ask my host to change DNS of Nuxified.COM to libernod server and then we can take it from there. The first project to host is EasyLFS, right? Smiling

So, reptiler, what do you need? What shall we set up first? I'll admit I haven't been setting up project management systems before but it shouldn't be a big deal. I set up various other kinds of web software.

EasyLFS will be under easylfs.nuxified.com, and that would be a sticking subdomain, not just a redirection. Smiling

Cheers

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Joined: 2006-03-28
Well, I actually don't need

Well, I actually don't need much more than storage and bandwidth. ;-)
I don't use any VCS for the development, so I'd just need SSH- or FTP-access for file-transfers.
I'm not sure yet how to manage the information, if I'll have some sort of Wiki again or better something CMS-like. Or maybe even just a bunch of pages.
In any case it might be useful to have a database, if possible.

Maybe I'll just write something. But for that I'll need to figure out first how I want to manage information and how I want to show it.

Big thanks to you guys for this great support!

libervisco's picture
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Database is not a problem.

Database is not a problem. Smiling I don't currently have FTP set up since we use SSH for file transfer, but that can be set up too.

Cheers

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If it's not setup yet then

If it's not setup yet then you don't need to change that for me. I'm perfectly comfortable using SSH/SCP for transfers.

tbuitenh's picture
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We should figure out what

We should figure out what project sites should look like.

If they should all have the nuxified style, and some standardized info (think freshmeat) on their front page, it's best to put all of them on a single drupal.

If project owners should be free to make it look like whatever they want, there should be an easy way to insert the libervis network bar and the ads in the proper places (a php file that should be included? but then what if I'm using python to generate my pages?)

By the way, trac has a builtin wiki, but I guess that's not nice enough for a project homepage.

libervisco's picture
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I thought of allowing the

I thought of allowing the project owner to decide what they actually like. Making it all in a single Drupal install might be a bit too limiting.

Maybe the best way would be to just have the Nuxified button, like a badge, ready and then put it in whatever place is appropriate for any given site, which would be decided on a case by case basis. I'm not sure a Libervis Network bar is even necessary, but even that can be done on a case by case basis, depending on the chosen CMS. It's probably going to be a PHP include in most cases or a mere modification of a theme.

The Nuxified button would say something like "Supported by Nuxified" and link to Nuxified.org. It would say neither Nuxified.org nor Nuxified.com on the badge, just "Nuxified" referring to both domains as a part of the whole brand, which should stand for Free Software support.

tbuitenh's picture
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Right, it would be a good

Right, it would be a good idea to have some standardized overview page for all projects, though. It might even be a single page on nxfd.o with a short description of each project.

free-zombie's picture
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In principle, I am

In principle, I am interested in this service. I have experience with the Mercurial and Git VCS, so if help is needed on that front, here I am.

I don't think AFoC is suited for this owing to the rather particular and variable hosting requirements I'm likely to have, but maybe something else that's likely to be interesting to people crops up, we'll see.

I'd love to be able to mirror the AFoC Mercurial repositories somewhere, but that's a bit beside the point, isn't it ;-)

libervisco's picture
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Agreed. That's probably

Agreed. That's probably going to be the homepage of Nuxified.com. Smiling

libervisco's picture
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Well we can set up an

Well we can set up an afoc.nuxified.com too and then whatever you might use it for, such as that repository, you're welcome. Smiling

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What would a be good for my

What would a be good for my project would be that I could finally have a site that's going to be recognized to Google.
My website didn't even receive a pagerank, and seems not to have been visited by Google since mid July, and the Wiki isn't indexed by Google at all, for whatever reason.

libervisco's picture
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You can count on that.

You can count on that. We're generally indexed regularly. Surprisingly even a small page on Libervis.net got a fairly high page rank. Smiling

libervisco's picture
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Nuxified.com is now

Nuxified.com is now pointing to the appropriate http root directory on a new server. You'll see one folder there, easylfs. On your account's home folder, reptiler, there is a link to this easylfs directory and permissions are set for you to upload and edit within it.

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It seems I can't find it.

It seems I can't find it. Of course I can see the folder on nuxified.com, but I have no idea where I should find that upload-stuff.
From your description I think it should be under "Welcome reptiler -> my account", right?

libervisco's picture
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Nope, this is a whole other

Nope, this is a whole other server. I've given you the IP address and account data before for uploading those EasyLFS images. You log in there as reptiler and in your home dir you've got a link to the easylfs dir.

Cheers Smiling

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Oh, that's what you mean.

Oh, that's what you mean. :-)
Okay, now I know. :-)

tbuitenh's picture
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Danijel, could you please

Danijel, could you please (try to) set up trac for me? Passiflora is getting in a state where a TODO file (and several pieces of paper) isn't good enough to manage it anymore. Which is good news, in a way.

I suggest using sqlite as a database, because there apear to be problems with trac+mysql, and installing postgresql next to mysql just for this seems like overkill.

For the revision control anything will do, so just go with the default: svn.

Thank you!

libervisco's picture
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Sure, I'll try.

Sure, I'll try. Smiling

libervisco's picture
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Sorry for not doing this

Sorry for not doing this yet. I was working on some offline stuff today and should got to a Software Freedom Day event tomorrow so I'll get to it by sunday or monday. Smiling

Cheers

tbuitenh's picture
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no problem, and thanks!

no problem, and thanks!

tbuitenh's picture
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If you haven't started

If you haven't started working on this yet, maybe it's a nice idea to use supermike's new software instead.

EDIT: scratch that. After looking around the volo/fixer homepage a bit it seems trac is more feature-complete. Extensible systems are nice, monolithic systems that happen to do exactly what you need are nicer :/ . I suppose fixer is an interesting option for the less near future though.

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I think I'll put up

I think I'll put up something custom-built. I like that. :-)
Anyway, that can be far less complex than my website, so development should be done pretty quick.
Just have to find the time, besides making progress on EasyLFS and finally trying to finish Ultima 9. ;-)

Well, have to go the ATM soon, and I think afterwards I'll have a look into what I need and how I want to handle it.
Until I have the first pieces together I'll put up some static page tonight.

If you want me to place any banner for Libervis Network and/or Nuxified it would be nice to get those, or links to them, soon.

Any kind of request of what you want to see on my project-page can be fulfilled alot easier before I start working on everything. Then I can already plan in display-space and everything.

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Okay, a few questions.

Okay, a few questions. There will be a subdomain easylfs.nuxified.com, right?
Is PHP available? How about MySQL?
Having PHP would be quite important. I could do without MySQL, although it would be really great since that could hold the documentation and some stats.